With video games now being so advanced and such a large part of so many people's lives, I often think about the psychology of gaming and the positive and negative impact it can have on us. Video games mirror the people and world around us and we often relate to characters that we see ourselves reflected in. Luckily there is a podcast that discusses video game psychology and the guys over at 'Mind Controllers Podcast' allowed me to send them over an interview. But first, a little bit about who they are:
'Mind Controllers' is about shining the light behind the psychological aspects of video games. Hosted by two people who went to graduate school and studied Clinical Psychology, Brandon Craw and Joe Moreno dive deep into video games, exploring the background behind characters, pointing out which parts of their traumatic life can be attributed to their potential mental illness, and talking about the human factors behind game design.
So, you get it...they are far smarter than I am! Which is why I am extremely excited I got the opportunity to do this insightful and interesting interview...enjoy!
Do you believe the hands-on nature of video games helps us connect more psychologically with the characters compared to other mediums:
Brandon:
I believe we chatted about this in our horror pod, and there is definitely a research connection regarding players and their respective avatars. We are already attuned to the character/avatar that we play as. So when they have certain experiences, it feels like we are going through them too, to a certain extent. You feel like you are part of the game because you are controlling this avatar. Of course, there’s that disconnect that can occur when you stop suspending your disbelief and remember that you aren’t in the game, but for the most part, you feel a sense of self with your character. You make choices on their behalf, control them to defeat enemies and bosses, and achieve these amazing accomplishments because of your choices.
You, for the most part and barring some genres, are deciding the fate of the character. And I believe that helps you connect more to the characters in video games compared to some other mediums like tv or film. Not to discredit those other mediums because I love me some television and movies, and am often emotionally affected by them.
Joe:
Yes, take a game like Persona 3 where we take a character who is kind of an empty slate and control the actions and dialogue of the protagonist. I am able to identify with the character and make choices I would do or not do in the given scenarios. Also I am aiding this protagonist to make bonds with other characters and they will react accordingly. At the end of the day the game is just numbers, zeros and ones on a PS5 disc, but the connections, and character, I make sticks with me. We are in control and we see the protagonist through triumphs and turmoil. No other media allows me to engage and interact with a world like video games. There’s a reason why I prefer gaming because I am in control of actions and I am engaging directly with the world rather than being a passive observer in other media. I enjoy anime and movies but I prefer gaming it feels much more personal and special to me. The hands on nature does help me connect psychologically with the characters.
Is video game addiction a real threat?
Brandon:
Like any substance or thing that makes people feel good/happy, or cause that kind of dopamine rush, there is a chance of addiction. So like with video games, some people might use video games as a coping mechanism and that can result in avoiding other responsibilities, Addiction, in this case, occurs when you are using that thing, for example video games, in an unhealthy manner in which you are neglecting other aspects of life that might result in harming yourself or others. Is this addiction more common than some other addictions like maybe substance abuse? I’m not too sure, but there is certainly a possibility of being addicted to video games.
Like any addiction don't feel alone in it and don't be concerned about seeking help because most people who are trained with dealing with addiction, they aren't going to laugh this off. Video game addiction felt like it was a buzz word maybe, like, a decade ago or so. I felt there was a big anti video game movement at some point and it was tossed around there. I think some people may have been over exaggerating with their use of video game addiction. But there is a clinical definition for it and you can definitely seek help for it. No shame in that.
Joe:
Within my line of work I aid clients through implementing harm reduction which is essentially aiding the client in reducing the intake of any substance they identify as an issue. I have seen clients playing 12, 14, 15 hours a day playing video games. We incrementally decrease from 10 times a day to 9 times a day to 8 times a day and so on, so we are reducing that harm. It is real, I have seen it. I wanted to provide some context before I discuss addiction. I believe video game addiction is real due to my line of work. I have experienced working with others who struggle with video game addiction. 'Psycho-physiological mechanisms underlying computer game addiction are mainly stress coping mechanisms, emotional reactions, sensitization, and reward. Computer game playing may lead to long-term changes in the reward circuitry that resemble the effects of substance dependence.' (Weinstein, A. M. (2010). It makes sense, it is something that makes you feel good and increases dopamine and seratonine to a point where it is the main way you deal with stress. Then you become dependent on it, then you become addicted to it. And it becomes an issues as it gets in the way of like 'hey I gotta get a job, or I gotta go to school, or I gotta keep that doctors appointment'. It can become an issue, I think it is a real threat.
Are there any psychologically proven health benefits to video gaming?
Brandon:
There has been some research done that suggests there are certain benefits to playing video games. Some of the research was done in domains including: cognitive, motivational, emotional, and social. There’s also research done on “active” video games (games that have you doing physical activity like ring fit adventure) that found that using active video games as a form of promoting physical activity, for example something like Ringfit, was more successful than traditional exercise.
From a psychological stand point, there was a recent study that found 88% of participants in his cross-sectional survey had experienced emotional and psychological benefits of gaming (probably higher emotional/psychological well-being scores). They found that music games (guitar hero etc), rpgs, and survival horror games correlated with the greatest psychological benefits, whereas multiplayer online battle arena games (MOBAs - eg League of Legends etc.) had the lowest scores for psychological and emotional well-being. I think this was due to the toxic community as you don't know who you are inviting into your world when you are playing these games. Anyway, there are some psychological benefits to gaming and there are some toxic environments that I try to avoid.
Video Game Journalist:
I wanted to jump in here and point you all in the direction of my article How Alan Wake II Helped Me Through Depression as I think it further emphasizes the point about survival horror. Anyway...back to the interview.
Joe:
I actually did a research paper on a study back in 2017 during my undergraduate years and discovered a CBT (cognitive-behavioral therapy) study by the name of SPARX (smart, positive, active, realistic, x-factor thoughts) is a seven-session CCBT program specifically developed for young people with depressive symptoms and has been shown to be appealing to and effective for adolescents seeking help for depression. SPARX is a computerized self-help program for the treatment of depressive symptoms and uses the medium of a fantasy world, where the user’s avatar is faced with a series of challenges to rid a virtual world of gloom and negativity. So you are travelling the land trying to fix the world and on the way you are learning tools to help your own depression, to alleviate it and to reduce symptoms. It is something pretty cool and it got me into looking at how we can integrate video games and therapy. I hear there is a Dungeons and Dragons groups that are therapeutic. I have seen Animal Crossing groups and Minecraft groups as well.
What video game characters do you both find interesting from a psychological point of view? Who would you like to talk through their trauma?
Brandon:
All of our main episode from Mind Controllers we are talking about certain characters and stuff and all of those characters I find interesting. But there is one that stands out, maybe it is recency bias, but Alan Wake still confuses me. I just want to talk to that guy and see what is going on in his world. Especially with all the trauma he has been through and the way he is manipulating the world but also causing more trauma for himself. I don't think it would be a pleasant conversation but I would love to get inside his head a bit.
Video Game Journalist:
At the mention of Alan Wake, I wanted to jump in here once again and point you all in the direction of my article How Alan Wake II Helped Me Through Depression anyway...back to the interview.
Joe:
This might be a meme answer for Guilty gear fans but - Sol Badguy. So this is from the Wiki - 'Sullen and unrefined, Sol only speaks to others when absolutely necessary.Consequently, he is not very good at expressing himself, and tends to compensate by bullying people into line or simply steamrolling them. A lone wolf with a belligerent streak, Sol is actually an extremely intelligent individual who doesn't tolerate nonsense and gets "grumpy" whenever he cannot explain something with logic. He is also quite stubborn, never allowing the opinions of others to dissuade him once he has made up his mind. Sol is seen by most people as crude and self-centered, even those who might call him a friend.' (Guilty Gear Wiki) I find him fascinating and Guilty Gear law is crazy. If you have an hour or two to kill I recommend listening to Guilty Gear law because it is wild. It is a good time though! I would love to sit down and talk to this guy because there is some trauma in that Guilty Gear law.
Cozy gaming has recently become so popular, why do you think that is?
Brandon:
I think there is a strong desire to feel comfortable and relax in our day to day lives that cozy gaming helps deliver. I could get into why the desire to relax is so high nowadays, but that would be too long of a conversation. But it feels like everyone's day-to-day lives can be so busy that you want to do something mindless at the end of the day to kind of zone out, relax your brain, relax your body and just immerse yourself into this comfortable world that doesn't have any real threat. So, we turn to these games in order to de-stress and wind down after a long day. To sum it up. We have stressful lives and cozy games help us de-stress.
Joe:
I’ve also heard that cozy games could extend to simulator games such as power wash simulator. You have a task and that task rarely changes. There is no denying that farming games serve their purpose of cozy games. To me a cozy game has a routine something that I expect day in day out. For example I still play animal crossing new horizons ever since it released back in 2020. I play it for twenty minutes each day. What keeps me coming back is a sense of familiarity and I know what I will be doing each day. My routine involves collecting the fossils and weeds on the island while speaking to my villagers. The music, environment, and overall sound design keep me coming back. For example, in the winter season the ground will ice over and the sound of footsteps crunching on the snow is pleasing. The sounds of the cicadas in the summer are pleasing. Heck even the sound of the waterfall keeps me coming back. I know that my day is coming to an end or I am taking a break when I boot up Animal Crossing. I'm not like defeating a dragon or anything, you know, I am just checking in, it is kind of my way to decompress. So Animal Crossing is my cozy game. Maybe that is how it is for other people with cozy games? But there is something special about checking in and winding down, especially if you are just 'go, go, go' all the time.
Why do you think games without a particular goal or ending are so popular now? (Aka Stardew Valley, Animal Crossing, Roblox, Minecraft)
Brandon:
I view these types of games as being therapeutic for a variety of different reasons. We feel welcomed in the world of these games (animal crossing, stardew) or we help create the world that we want to play in (roblox, minecraft). We create the objective and it gives us some agency. Like with Animal Crossing and Stardew. You kinda feel like these people depend on you to live in the world and interact with them, helping them out with tasks, paying them back, buying things for them and these are never ending so you are always feeling like you're needed, so it is nice to feel welcome and wanted there.
Joe:
A game without an end means infinite possibilities. I could continue to level up my character or other aspects of the world. My younger self loves these games because they never end. I am always working towards a goal I set up. But now closing in on my 30's I find myself searching for games with an end goal set for me. The end of a story or hitting the credits is enough for me because my time is now limited compared to when I was younger. Games can serve as a time waster, a means to an end, but even games without an end can provide comfort because the game will always be there. I think that is why they are so popular because of the infinite possibilities.
Why do people play games that are tortuously difficult?
Brandon:
Funny that I’m playing Elden Ring right now, but I feel like it’s because of the satisfaction gained when you overcome that difficulty and feel triumphant despite all the previous attempts and failures. Those failures help you learn and progress.
Joe:
There is no denying a sense of satisfaction with defeating a difficult boss in FromSoftware games or souls like games. A couple of bosses come to mind like Lady Maria of the Astral Clock Tower in BloodBorne, Starscourge Radahn - Elden Ring, or Sif in Dark Souls 1 There is an increase in dopamine and serotonin in our brains that allow us to feel satisfaction about these accomplishments. I believe difficult games allow us to adapt and grow within the game. I would argue that fighting games can be tortuously difficult. Let me give you a scenario where you are playing SF6 and you keep losing to an opponent. It's 0 to 20 but on the twenty-first try you take the match. I walked into my room after hanging out with Brandon on a Sunday and my brother was ecstatic, elated and satisfied that he had won one round against a tough opponent. Also I can take what I learned in matches and use it against tougher opponents and learn from them as well. I am also biased on this so take this with a grain of salt. Tough games fulfill a role and I welcome them. There is some satisfaction in taking something that is difficult and over coming it.
What does it take to make a perfectly designed game from a psychologist’s point of view?
Brandon:
This is a tough one because it depends on your definition of perfect. I could think of maybe a game that people keep coming back to, or maybe a game that brings the most satisfaction to the player. Overall, gaming is so subjective that it would be hard to make a perfect game for everyone. For me, a perfect game would look something like Baldur's Gate 3. I love RPG's and I love games that make you feel like the world is alive and I think Bladur's Gate 3 does a great job at that - making almost every choice you execute in that game have a consequence or have an effect on the world. Even every dialogue choice can have a different outcome. Games that make you feel like you are in control of the world but also a part of the world, like the world is living, are perfect video games for me.
Joe:
Perfection is subjective so I agree with Brandon here this is a tough one to answer. I don’t think I played a perfect game. I prefer turn-based role playing games and I am cognizant that this genre is not enjoyed by everyone. Every game has a flaw, it just has to. These are products of humanity and I know we aren’t perfect but that's okay because I enjoy games for their flaws and strengths. So I don't know if there is a perfect game.
What makes a good psychological horror?
Brandon:
We chatted about this recently and in a previous podcast and there are certain aspects of horror game design you want to include. First, you need a good slow but steady pacing of the game so that you can take in the world and feel immersed. You also need to have a setting that makes you feel isolated from any “rescue” that could come to bail you out, you need to feel alone and that there is no way out. The level design needs to be mostly narrow hallways that make the player feel confined and unsure of what’s around every corner. Audio is also important since you don’t want to have the game be completely silent. You need to have that background noise like a generator, or crickets if you are outside.
Having the game feel unpredictable, but also that you have just enough control to barely squeeze by while panicking is what makes a great horror game to me. I also appreciate when games put you in a scenario where you are afraid to die but you don't yet. They keep you on the last limbs of your life. They try not to kill you since dying in a horror game is the “worst” thing that can happen, and once you die in the game you aren’t too afraid of it happening anymore. You want to make every experience feel novel.
Joe:
Playing through Silent Hill 2 and 3 with a friend two months ago had both of us think about a good psychological horror game. Those games take places that could exist in the real world but then make them horrifying. For example in SH3 we find ourselves in a mall, which does not strike fear. But once Silent Hill does it's thing and distorts the world into a nightmare filled with monsters that are not easy to take down, the dread and fear sets in. You find yourself having to bob and weave because you don't have enough bullets to kill all the enemies. There is a sense of dread and fear that takes over because this is somewhere familiar. If you want to know how an innocuous place like a mall can cause fear and anxiety check out SH3. It sets up our expectations and then destroys them. Changing something familiar to unfamiliar can be unnerving.
Thank you so much to the guys over at 'Mind Controllers Podcast' for such an interesting interview. This was a condensed version of the interview that was on the most recent podcast, so it is definitely worth giving it a listen for extra detail. Please check out their podcast Here and follow their social media!
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